How to edit a dead child language

How to edit a dead child language

by German Valero -
Number of replies: 4
Picture of Language pack maintainers

I sadly noticed today that both es-co (Spanish Colombia) and es_ve (Spanish Venezuela) are currently without a maintainer sad

While I was thinking about volunteering to maintain them, I realized that most of the existing changed strings (40 and 400) in both language packs should not  be there at all.

In fact, for both language packs, only the existing langconfig.php file should remain for each language pack. And even that file might benefit from a really carefull inspection.

I think it would very good if the other Spanish-speaking  translators at AMOS could have a look at these child languages strings and state their opinions.

Would it be possible for David to surgically remove all the other files (except langconfig.php) currently contained in each of those language packs ?

The changed strings contained in these child languages are not really better for the Colombian and Venezuelan Moodlers than the parent es (international Spanish) language pack, which is continuously being improved.

In reply to German Valero

Re: How to edit a dead child language

by koen roggemans -
Picture of Language pack maintainers

Hi German,

I understand your concern - there are and have been more language packs like that.

But they are open source, community maintained. Everyone is free to contribute and free to abandon the project.

Looking at the download statistics on https://download.moodle.org/local/downloadmoodleorg/stats.php (which may or may not be reliable, I know),  I see that both of them are downloaded. So some people might rely on them in their current state. If they are happy with them the way they are, fine, if they are not happy with them, they can find the way to become maintainer and improve them.

I am not pro removing work of other people and certainly not without replacing it with something better. I don't live in Colombia or Venezuela, so I'm not aware of the need of a modified language pack. Since someone did the effort to do something, the need might be there. Note that the installation of such a language pack is optional.

Just my opinion.

Kind regards

Koen

In reply to koen roggemans

Re: How to edit a dead child language

by German Valero -
Picture of Language pack maintainers

Hi Koen,

You are a very wise and sensible translator and I agree with many of the points you raise, BUT

To illustrate my point, I am enclosing all the strings inside the 'access.php' file for the es_ve (Spanish for Venezuela) language pack. After the ' : characters I have added the current strings for the parent international Spanish language and a comment according to the following key:

*** both child language pack and paternal language pack strings are IDENTICAL
** the child language string has a minor, non significant, difference from the parent language string and both strings can be interchanged without any change in the meaning of the string
* the child and the parent strings are different, but it is most likely a personal opinion of one translator which would likely be different from that of another translator, while both strings would be understandable by most Moodle users
!!! the es_ve child string is a literal (Google) translation that is certainly inappropriate and it should be fixed or deleted, as it conveys a wrong translation sense.

$string['access'] = 'Accesibilidad';Accesibilidad ***
$string['accesshelp'] = 'Ayuda de Accesibilidad';Ayuda sobre accesibilidad **
$string['accesskey'] = 'Tecla de acceso, {$a}';Clave de acceso, {$a} !!!
$string['accessstatement'] = 'Declaración de accesabilidad';Declaración de accesibilidad ***
$string['activitynext'] = 'Actividad siguiente';Siguiente actividad **
$string['activityprev'] = 'Actividad anterior';Actividad anterior ***
$string['breadcrumb'] = 'Ruta de navegación';Rastro de "migas de pan" *
$string['hideblocka'] = 'Ocultar bloque {$a}';Ocultar bloque {$a} ***
$string['monthprev'] = 'Mes anterior';Mes anterior ***
$string['showblocka'] = 'Mostrar bloque {$a}';Mostrar bloque {$a} ***
$string['sitemap'] = 'Mapa del sitio';Mapa del sitio ***
$string['skipa'] = 'Saltar {$a}';Saltar {$a} ***
$string['skipblock'] = 'Saltar bloque';Saltar bloque ***
$string['skipnavigation'] = 'Saltar navegación';Saltar navegación ***
$string['skipto'] = 'Saltar a {$a}';Saltar a {$a} ***
$string['tocontent'] = 'Saltar al contenido principal';Saltar a contenido principal **
$string['tonavigation'] = 'Ir a navegación';Ir a navegación ***
$string['youarehere'] = 'Usted se encuentra aquí';Usted está aquí **

As you can see, there are 12 strings that are IDENTICAL in the child and the parent language packs. Currently this is a waste of resources and a potential risk if the parent language strings were ever updated, e.g. to reflect a change in the original English language text.

There are 2 strings that differ slightly in the wording, but both convey the same meaning and can be interchanged

There is only 1 string with a significantly different string from the paternal language, but if you gather several native speakers it is highly likely that they will have different opinions about  which would be the best translation. Actually, this particular string is an ideal situation for discussion in the Spanish translation forum at https://moodle.org/mod/forum/view.php?id=683, where I will raise the issue in a few minutes.

There is one language string in the es_ve child language pack that is a literal (Google) translation thet is certainly inappropriate and it should be fixed or deleted, as it conveys a wrong translation sense.

The above findings are the reason why I personally think it would be best for the Moodlers in Venezuela if we removed all the files in this pack EXCEPT for the langconfig.php file, which we may later inspect very carefully.

I am not pro removing work of other people, but these strings have 12  redudant and 1 mistaken translations  in one file examined and I think they SHOULD be removed, as the child translations are no better than the paternal language pack.


I don't live in Colombia or Venezuela, but the above strings do not show much of a a difference in the 2 strings with minor differences.

While someone did indeed make the effort to do something, I too agree that the need for a localized language pack might be there, but this es_ve  language pack is not really that different from the international Spanish language pack (only 2 very minor strings wording in this example file). On this I do have a very strong opinion, as the Mexican Spanish language pack that I currently maintain was indeed developed at my University (UNAM) because we did need many important different strings from the Spanish language they use in Spain. Nowadays  AMOS translators from Spain and Mexico make contributions to both language packs, we have detected and fixed typos in both languages, and we have identified a better translation in one pack and copied it into the other pack. And we have also realized that some cultural differences do merit different strings for Spain and Mexico and that some minor differences are really a matter of personal preferences for either translator and both strings are grammatically correct and accurate.


I will be looking forward to reading the opinions of AMOS translators more experienced than me.

In reply to German Valero

Re: How to edit a dead child language

by Fernando Acedo -

I totally agree with Germán. I don't see the need to maintain an es-ve and es-co language localizations since they are very similar to es-mx. And the evidence is that Adaptable is widely used in South America with Español-Mexico translation made by Germán and nobody asked for a better localization. That means that the existing Spanish localizations are enough to cover all the needs of the Spanish community

And I also agree that the exiting translations are made with Google Translator and not by humans. The sample is really easy to understand in this string:

$string['breadcrumb'] = 'Ruta de navegación';Rastro de "migas de pan" *

Migas de pan is a really bad translation of breadcrumb because the right Spanish translation is "Ruta de Navegación" (when we talk about websites of course) but Google translate it always as Migas de pan. 

Better spend more time and effort in the Spanish-Spain translation that maintain 2 versions that will be rarely used. And Germán does an amazing job with the Spanish-Mexico translation. That would be enough to keep both localization and therefore the whole Spanish community will be completely covered.


In reply to German Valero

Re: How to edit a dead child language

by German Valero -
Picture of Language pack maintainers

I continued examining the strings inside the es_ve language pack and I found that:

it includes activequiz.php strings for an additional plugin, where it "translates" the English word "quiz" into "quiz".

While this contrasts sharply with both the Internatinal Spanish (cuestionario) and Mexican Spanish (examen) translations, it is senseless, because the many (318) cases where "quiz" is used in Moodle core, it will be replaced by the es "cuestionario" in 258 (as 40 strings are still untranslated).


I think this does not benefit the Moodle users from Venezuela, as it lacks consistency for the highly used word 'quiz'.


The calendar.php strings only have $string['monthnext'] = 'Mes próximo'; which is identical to the es translation. This is another wasteful translation file.


Finally, the $string['popuplaunched'] = 'Este paquete SCORM ha sido abierto en una ventana emergente, si has terminado de usar este recurso, pulsa aquí para regresar a la página del curso'; is not that different from the es translation "Este paquete SCORM se ha abierto en una nueva ventana, si has terminado de ver este recurso, haz clic aquí para regresar a la página del curso".


So, I must insist that this es_ve language pack, in it's current state, is of no real benefit to Moodle users from Venezuela.


Therefore I request that the files inside it (access.php, activequiz.php, calendar.php and scorm.php) be deleted from the es_ve language pack, and only the lanconfig.php file should remain (for compatibility with current users of this language pack).


I volunteer to act as a maintainer for the scaled-down es_ve language pack, while a new (native Venezuelan) maintainer is found. I will carefully check the langconfig.php language file and make any needed fixes.

I think my proposal takes care of Koen's concerns while it removes the un-needed and mis-translated four files (access.php, activequiz.php, calendar.php and scorm.php), which in turn will result in a better user experience for Venezuelan Moodle users.